Exploring the Triathlon Landscape: Insights from Tempo Talks
The first ever episode of Tempo Talks begins with a discussion about the state of the sport: Does the recent announcement of the selling out of slots for Oceanside 70.3 indicate that triathlon is finally back on the upswing or is this just a red herring? We then discuss the recent vlog put out by Lionel Sanders in which he discusses his latest training method-less hours, more race specificity. Can this work for him? Can this work for you? Finally, Matt introduces the topic of band only swim intervals. Dreaded by some (including the TriDoc!) embraced by others, this drill could help improve your swim.
Links to topics discussed:
The TriDoc Podcast
Episode on body composition
Matt's Instagram
Jeff's Instagram
Transcript
Welcome to Tempo Talks, a show that brings you analysis of the biggest stories in triathlon training, tips to make you a better athlete, and breakdowns of the latest science and performance.
Speaker A:I'm Matthew Sharp, an olympian in triathlon, 70.3 champion and co founder of the Tempo News.
Speaker B:And I'm Jeff Sankoff, the tridoc medical contributor for Triathlete magazine, age group winner and coach at Life Sport Coaching.
Speaker B:Our goal, inform and entertain two perspectives.
Speaker B:One sport, all things triathlon.
Speaker B:Now, let's get into it.
Speaker B:We don't even know how to start.
Speaker A:We don't.
Speaker A:It's good.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:That's probably a good start right there.
Speaker B:All right, Matt, it's so exciting.
Speaker B:We're here.
Speaker B:Our first ever episode of Tempo Talks.
Speaker B:How are you feeling?
Speaker A:Yeah, feeling pretty good.
Speaker A:I'm super happy to be here with you, Jeff.
Speaker A:Just really stoked to have a nice conversation and bring some people some good knowledge and info and entertainment.
Speaker B:Me too.
Speaker B:I think everybody wants to know why now you've been doing the Tempo News for a long time and why now?
Speaker A:I think really I've had a lot of folks ask over the years, are you going to do a podcast?
Speaker A:Some people are saying, when are you going to do a podcast?
Speaker A:Mostly my mom.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:Shout out.
Speaker A:Shout out my mom.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think it just felt like it was really kind of time to do this.
Speaker A:And I think it's being a part of this current media environment, having something like a podcast is another tool in the tool belt.
Speaker A:And so I'm excited to do this, especially with you, and try and build something that people will enjoy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was really excited that you thought of me and we've gotten to know each other, I think, reasonably well over the last few years since you've been down here.
Speaker B:We're both affiliated with Life Sport, of.
Speaker A:Course, and two Canadians in Colorado.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And we could take the relationship to this next level.
Speaker B:Bond.
Speaker B:I love it for a podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you're in Florida right now.
Speaker B:How are things going down there?
Speaker A:Florida's okay.
Speaker A:The weather is exceptional.
Speaker A:I know back home, I think you guys are getting hit with a little bit of snow.
Speaker A:A little bit hit a cold.
Speaker B:It is so cold.
Speaker B:It's awful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, super happy to be here with Kirsten's, my wife's parents at their place and yeah, just getting some training in.
Speaker B:All right, excellent.
Speaker B:I, I, we talking about Tempo Talks.
Speaker B:I think I probably should take advantage of this to just drop in the fact that there is another podcast that I'm affiliated with for people who are listening to this for the first time.
Speaker B:My name is Jeff Sankoff.
Speaker B:I am the Tridoc.
Speaker B:What does that mean?
Speaker B:It means that I am an emergency physician.
Speaker B:You all know Matt, the professional triathlete, the former Olympian.
Speaker B:I know Matt because he has been a guest frequently on my own podcast, which is the Tridoc Podcast.
Speaker B:It comes out every two weeks.
Speaker B:We have a medical section.
Speaker B:We do an interview, and most recently we talked about thyroid disease and how that can have an impact on endurance trainings.
Speaker B:If you are interested in having a listen, we'd love to have you over there.
Speaker B:The link will be in the show.
Speaker A:Jeff, do you have an episode, like a starter episode that people might be interested in?
Speaker A:A Gateway Tridock episode?
Speaker B:The most popular episode last year was one that we did where we talked about the effects or the importance of body composition and on how that relates to performance.
Speaker B:And that's a real hot topic for a lot of endurance athletes.
Speaker B:They always wonder, do I need to worry about my weight?
Speaker B:Do I need to worry about how what I eat in order to change my body composition?
Speaker B:We found some really interesting findings in the medical literature and we talked with the dietitian on that episode and yeah, I'll put that specific episode link in the show notes if people are interested.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:Yeah, really good topic.
Speaker A:I think it's a good time to get into the meat of the show.
Speaker A:First off, this thing crossed my radar Talking about Oceanside 70.3.
Speaker A:It's a big tent pole in the triathlon industry.
Speaker A:Ironman just announced that it is sold out this year, which is great.
Speaker A:Personally, it's cool to see.
Speaker A:Obviously, sellouts of races are great.
Speaker A:And yeah, like I was wondering, is this a sign of strength in the industry or is this more just a sign of consolidation?
Speaker A:In some ways, I think I wanted to do a little bit of research.
Speaker A:So I looked last year what the numbers were like for Oceanside, and they definitely didn't have any kind of announcement that they'd sold out.
Speaker A:I think the only thing I could find was that there was about 3,000 athletes who had taken part, which is good, very solid.
Speaker A:But to see that 3,600 athletes this year had register whether they're all finished, who knows.
Speaker A:But I think seeing that, it's okay.
Speaker A:To me, first off, it just.
Speaker A:It says okay.
Speaker A:There's still strong demand for these races for triathlons, I think.
Speaker A:What are your quick thoughts on that, Jeff?
Speaker B:I'm of two minds of this.
Speaker B:I think that this conversation about the health of triathlon has been overblown.
Speaker B:A little bit.
Speaker B:It's something that comes up.
Speaker B:I just saw a video on GTN where they were talking about the imminent death of multisport and it's not the first time, it's not going to be the last time.
Speaker B:I think there's a always this angst about triathlon and it's not unreasonable.
Speaker B:The sport is unfortunately skewed towards the older age groups because of the fact that it is so expensive.
Speaker B:And there's a lot of hits on Ironman and now the PTO for making the sport expensive.
Speaker B:But the fact of the matter is the triathlon is going to be an inherently expensive sport because of the necessity of the bicycle and some of the other things that we need.
Speaker B:But also for the organizers who are putting on these events, the permitting, the amount of territory you have to cover, this is an expensive event to put on.
Speaker B:So there's always going to be this question about how tenable is triathlon because of that.
Speaker B:So that's one thing.
Speaker B:But the second thing is Oceanside, as you said, it's a tentpole.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Oceanside is.
Speaker B:It's the signal of the beginning of the season.
Speaker B:It's in California, the Paris Roubaix of triathlon.
Speaker A:Some people are saying it's the.
Speaker B:It's been around for.
Speaker B:It's one of the longest, if not the.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:With Ironman Canada going away from Penticton.
Speaker B:I think Oceanside might be the longest running race.
Speaker B:I could be wrong.
Speaker B:I don't think we'll need a fact.
Speaker A:We'll need a fact check on that from the audience.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let us know if there's.
Speaker B:Yeah, but because I, I've done Oceanside several times and it's a fantastic race.
Speaker B:Great location, wonderful course, support it, community that loves the race.
Speaker B:There's so many things going for it.
Speaker B:It's not that surprising.
Speaker B:It every year it's a huge crowd that shows up.
Speaker B:The difference between 3,000 and 3,600 doesn't really.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker A:So it was definitely 3,000 that had registered.
Speaker A:So that's where I was seeing like, oh, okay, this is a meaningful bump.
Speaker A:600 athletes more like that to me, that is worth noting for sure.
Speaker B:I think what I take away from this is that Oceanside is healthy.
Speaker B:I don't know that I take away from this that triathlon registrations in general are healthy.
Speaker B:But it's not surprising to me that Oceanside is going to be a popular race.
Speaker B:That a Lot of people are going to show up to.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it could definitely be a sign of this industry consolidation.
Speaker A:But I will say that we've done polls in the newsletter recent one actually on asking whether people would be doing an independent race this year and the majority people who responded said, yes, I'm going to be doing an independent race.
Speaker A:A lot of comments on the races they liked and they sounded like great times.
Speaker A:So I was, it was a lot of fun to read that and learn where people were racing.
Speaker A:But to me, Oceanside's great.
Speaker A:A lot of media, all that kind of stuff too.
Speaker A:A lot of hype.
Speaker A:But I do feel, especially after this Covid kind of devastation, that these races are starting to stabilize and come out in a better position.
Speaker A:Maybe.
Speaker A:Obviously some people suffered through that big time.
Speaker A:Most race directors probably did to be fair.
Speaker A:But I do feel like now things are stabilizing.
Speaker A:And I spoke with a subscriber who's the race director in New York.
Speaker A:He does a bunch of events in New York.
Speaker A:And I asked him last year, I said, hey, how are things looking registration wise?
Speaker A:And he told me like, hey, we've never been better.
Speaker A:And this was like coming out of COVID and whatnot.
Speaker A:It's still on that side.
Speaker A:So I feel like I'm getting a pulse on the industry and to me it feels all around general strength.
Speaker A:There's always going to be folks who are getting washed out, but it feels like a good situation.
Speaker B:I think we have to be careful about the health of the big events like the Ironman and the PTO events versus the health of triathlon in general.
Speaker B:And the way to measure the health of triathlon in general is difficult.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:USAT releases its numbers every year and talks about this is how many people we have signed up for memberships in USAT and, and that is used as an indirect measure of how healthy the sport is.
Speaker B:I'm not sure how valid it is because for a lot of these independent races they may not be using USAT sanctioning.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker B:So people don't need to have usat or they may be just taking people who come in and take a one day license, which I don't think gets registered or gets counted as those numbers by usat.
Speaker B:So it's hard to tell.
Speaker B:I do think I agree with you.
Speaker B:See here in Colorado where we have a lot of independent races, those numbers continue to grow.
Speaker B:And as you see an increasing variety of kinds of races, gravel triathlons for example, all kinds of different ways of doing triathlon, it only Bodes well for me.
Speaker B:While the health of Ironman and the health of PTO I think are really important, I think they're separate from the health of triathlon as well.
Speaker A:Do you think ironman and the PTO's health is similar?
Speaker B:That's a.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Until the PTO figures out what it's actually going to be.
Speaker B:I, I don't know if you can.
Speaker A:They need to start announcing some sellouts and, and then we'll start plugging them on the show.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's, I think it's a good situation generally also really we are in an era of an even more competitive endurance landscape.
Speaker A:Event landscape.
Speaker A:We've got gravel racing which is really on the up nowadays, ultra running.
Speaker A:So if they can still put up strong numbers amongst this really competitive landscape, I do think that it's a good signal for sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you mentioned to me earlier today something about a new sort of mass participation race series being brought out by Super Try of all people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So tell me about that.
Speaker A:Great segue, Jeff.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So this is news today, fresh in our inboxes.
Speaker A:Super Tri.
Speaker A:So these guys put on, they innovated and almost started the like short, really short format dynamic triathlon series many years ago and then they pivoted to starting to get into events in North America, buying events.
Speaker A:They bought the Malibu Triathlon, Chicago Triathlon, New York City Triathlon years ago and setting the stage to become more of an events company.
Speaker A:And announcement today from Super Tri that they have purchased the Cap Tech Triathlon, I believe that's in Austin.
Speaker A:And then also the Kerrville Triathlon.
Speaker A:Never heard of that but looked into it.
Speaker A:Looks like a great race.
Speaker A:And this is also in that Hill Country Texas area.
Speaker A:So all part of a bigger announcement that they've designated these races and a few unders others under this Buy Super Tri brand which it sounds, rolls off the tongue nicely I think.
Speaker A:By Super Tri essentially you're saying it's the LA Triathlon or the Chicago Triathlon.
Speaker A:By Super Tri, yeah.
Speaker A:It's, it's an interesting move.
Speaker A:These are both seemingly quite healthy races.
Speaker A:What do you think about this, Jeff?
Speaker B:I think it's fantastic.
Speaker B:You asked me specifically about whether or not age group athletes are still fired up about Olympic distance races and shorter and listen, I'm a huge fan, an unabashed and unapologetic fan of Ironman.
Speaker B:I think that Ironman bias is coming out already.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'm going to put it right out there because I know that, I know that the brand engenders a lot of people's animosity and that's okay.
Speaker B:I get it, I understand.
Speaker B:But the reality is that Ironman does a really good job of doing what it does well.
Speaker B:It puts on a quality long distance race.
Speaker B:You show up for a 70.3 anywhere in the world with an Ironman brand, you know what you're getting and you're going to get a very well run event.
Speaker B:I have yet to show up anywhere in the world for an Ironman branded event and be disappointed with.
Speaker B:Sometimes the course isn't up to speed or anything like that.
Speaker B:But the way the the event is run is always you get what you.
Speaker A:Pay for, you're getting the quality that you expect.
Speaker A:It's not going to be over the moon, it's not going to surprise you.
Speaker A:There's going to be no surprises on race day with what you're getting, but you know what you're getting and they deliver.
Speaker B:But one of the problems with Ironman is their whole mantra of anything is possible, which is great and has brought a lot of people to the sport, but it's brought a lot of people to the sport for one reason and one reason only, and that is to complete their sort of bucket list thing.
Speaker B:So they come in, they do their Ironman, their full Ironman and then they're like, oh great, I've done my Ironman, I'm done.
Speaker B:And they wipe their hands and they leave the sport.
Speaker B:And I think there's a lot of.
Speaker A:Churn in that situation.
Speaker A:You bring in these athletes but then they're bouncing a few years later.
Speaker A:A couple years later.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that's really unfortunate because I think that triathlon really can be at least it has been for me for over two decades.
Speaker B:It's really been a lifestyle.
Speaker B:It's been something that has changed my life.
Speaker B:It's made my life more enriched.
Speaker B:And I know a lot of other people feel the same way and they're not getting that if they think that the only options available to them are long distance or full distance Ironman.
Speaker B:And I know also that for people who are considering triathlon, if they only see the full distance or half distance races, then they're not really going to be getting into it.
Speaker B:And so having more options, especially high profile big races that offer that kind of event experience, but you don't have to commit to the same level of training, the same duration of training.
Speaker B:Because I know I got into triathlon, I did a sprint that led me, led me to an Olympic, which led me to the half which led me to the full.
Speaker B:That is the natural progression of this.
Speaker B:And so I think having more of these kinds of races run by an event company like Supertry can only be good.
Speaker A:It's definitely exciting.
Speaker A:It's funny though, you talk about that your entry to, to the racing and triathlon, you did the kind of the rungs of the ladder, right?
Speaker A:You're doing sprint and then you're jumping up to the Olympic and then.
Speaker A:Okay, we're, we're jumping into a half now and then.
Speaker A:Yeah, eventually you did the full distance.
Speaker A:And it's interesting because I don't know if, if it's just vibes or, or whatever it is, but it just seems these days more people are just going straight into the half for their first one or they're, they're even going into Ironman for their first one and like you said, doing the half and then the Ironman or even just training for one Ironman and then bouncing.
Speaker A:I'm, I'm very curious.
Speaker A:I'd love to see super Triath succeed with this.
Speaker A:You want to get as many athletes as possible into racing into, into the sport and, and enjoying it.
Speaker A:Um, but I'm just, ah, I don't know if they've almost missed the timing on the popularity of sprint distance, popularity of Olympic distance because it seems like the trend is more focused on just longer distance, middle long distance races.
Speaker B:It's fair when we talk about the cost.
Speaker B:And the cost is not just financial.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The cost is also on your.
Speaker B:I mean we always joke about how triathlon is so all encompassing and you lose all your friends and you have.
Speaker A:To, you got to get divorced too.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:So when you talk about sprints and Olympics, that's not the case.
Speaker B:It's a much less time commitment, much less of an investment financially and, and it allows a, for a much greater range of people to become invested in the sport.
Speaker A:It's certainly more sustainable.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Life wise, I think to do the sprint distance, do the Olympic distance, even the 70.3, especially for maybe younger, the younger cohort, people my age, even younger, even at 70.3, you can definitely get away with less training.
Speaker A:But yeah, the Ironman especially, you're getting into it.
Speaker B:Jeff.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:So what's your like minimum Ironman training week?
Speaker A:Even if you're working full time, got kids.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:So I have this conversation with athletes who I coach.
Speaker B:If they're coming to me and they say they want to do an Ironman, the conversation begins with, okay, are we training to compete or are we training to complete because depending on what your goals are then that's going to dictate how much training you're going to do.
Speaker B:It's really hard to do an Ironman on less than 12 hours a week minimum because you have to be able to do the distances and so less than 12 hours a week is going to be really difficult.
Speaker B:Now you don't have to be doing 12 hours a week all the time, but you're going to have to get to 12 hours a week and if you want to compete it's going to be north of that by quite a bit.
Speaker B:So you know, I'm pretty honest with athletes.
Speaker B:If they don't have that kind of time to commit, I tell them hey, then there are other distances.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:There's no shame in doing the short stuff.
Speaker B:Do you know, I've never done an.
Speaker A:Ironman and there's no shame in that.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:Do you know, is the super tri, are these events going to have pros or are they just in the age group there?
Speaker A:I think what's going to happen is the ones later in the year will probably have pro races.
Speaker A:That's what I would guess probably like Chicago and maybe even the LA one.
Speaker A:But it's just interesting to see them continue to go down this events path.
Speaker A:It's the same thing as PTO slash T100.
Speaker A:What they're doing.
Speaker A:They're basically super tribe started before them so they got a bit of a head start.
Speaker A:But they're all going from being a media company which is like producing a product, a media product which is supposed to be triathlon to now pivoting to events and these guys are both trying to do the same thing.
Speaker A:They're going about it different ways.
Speaker A:PTO is doing their own a hundred K distance and Supertry is doing more better known sprint and Olympic distance races.
Speaker B:Supertry, Supertry is not in direct competition with these long distance events.
Speaker B:Which is why I always never understood why the PTO undermined Supertry on the whole Malibu thing.
Speaker B:It made no sense to me.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was good drama.
Speaker A:That was good trial and beef.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:But Supertry really feeds into the T100 and into Ironman by.
Speaker B:By providing athletes with a gateway drug for triathlon with the shorter stuff.
Speaker A:So yeah, no, it's true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I hope they do have pros though because I know for a lot of athletes seeing a professional race and seeing pros race at the same time, that's something I don't like about T100.
Speaker B:I don't like that the pros don't race at the same time.
Speaker B:Because I've always found it to be really incredible to be on the course at the same time as the pros and to know that you're sharing the course with them.
Speaker B:I think that is something in the Ironman races that is.
Speaker B:That lends something to it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You think then, like, Super Tri could eventually or could just have these athletes doing sprint, Olympic distance races.
Speaker B:I get.
Speaker B:Listen, I haven't thought it all the way through anyway, so it'd be interesting.
Speaker B:It'd be interesting if they had a.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because they.
Speaker B:The Super Tri do Super League.
Speaker B:Is it the same people?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So the company was originally called Super League Triathlon, and then I think there was a bit of a search engine issue with that because there was already a Rugby Super League or something, and they couldn't usurp them for the ultimate in Super League.
Speaker A:So they went out and.
Speaker A:And almost this time last year to Supertry.
Speaker A:And yeah, that was.
Speaker A:Yeah, people were like, okay, this is a new kind of new brand or whatever.
Speaker A:And this is all a part of this new branding with buy Supertry with these races.
Speaker A:I will say, having followed this now for a while, when Supertry bought Chicago and they bought the New York City Triathlon, which unfortunately doesn't seem to be happening this year, they.
Speaker A:When they purchased it, in the disclosure or in the articles and stuff, basically it said that these races weren't actually making money.
Speaker A:And you have a company that is doing this pivot to events.
Speaker A:They're not.
Speaker A:They don't have events in their DNA.
Speaker A:And I hope that the ones that they bought are maybe on a little bit better standing, but it's definitely a precarious situation for sure.
Speaker A:Just hoping that they can stabilize and get some revenue out of these things.
Speaker B:All right, we're going to move on to a third topic here in a second, but before we do, if you're enjoying the show, please do us both a favor and.
Speaker B:And leave us a rating and a review.
Speaker B:Wherever it is that you're downloading this content, it goes a long way to making the show a little more visible in all of the triathlon podcasts that are out there.
Speaker B:And don't forget to share with a friend.
Speaker B:All right, Matt, the always entertaining and the always not really controversial, but the always interesting Lionel Sanders, his most recent vlog came out just earlier this week and he was talking about.
Speaker B:Let's have a listen to the man.
Speaker B:He'll tell you what he was talking about.
Speaker B:So last week I trained 20 just over almost 21 hours, I trained nice.
Speaker B:And this week I'll probably actually only train like 17 just because of the way that the week pans out.
Speaker B:I couldn't care less what the weekly volume is.
Speaker B:I just don't think that that's, that's not a necessary component to be thinking about.
Speaker B:You need to think about the specificity of what you're doing inside the week.
Speaker B:And as long as what you're doing inside the week is progressive and taking you in the direction of your goals, then I don't care what the volume ends up being.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I totally disagree with that style of coaching.
Speaker B:When you hear him say things like that, how does that resonate with you?
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:I love it when he said just whenever he opens his mouth, it's gold, it's click worthy, it's worth watching, worth listening to.
Speaker A:And this is, this is exactly what we want.
Speaker A:It's what the people want.
Speaker A:I think he's done a lot of things in his time with coaching and training philosophies and now after doing a period of the quote unquote, Norwegian method, high volume, all that good stuff, he's now distilling things.
Speaker A:Sounds like he's distilling things down to.
Speaker A:I guess his thesis would be doing as much time at race effort or above the race effort as he can do, which means he's training significantly less volume.
Speaker A:Is that, is that what you got?
Speaker B:He talks about his training being much more high quality and more race specific.
Speaker B:So I gather that means he's doing a lot more.
Speaker B:It's hard to tell.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He shows himself sitting up on the bike spinning and then they quickly show his computer and he's spinning at like 360 watts.
Speaker B:And I'm trying to understand like you.
Speaker A:Spin it 360 watts.
Speaker A:Isn't that what you spin at, Jeff?
Speaker B:I wish.
Speaker B:But 360 watts for him.
Speaker B:Now he's not Tadi Pagacha, so that's not zone two for him.
Speaker B:I'm guessing that's a pretty high level of intensity.
Speaker A:Yeah, it definitely.
Speaker A:If you can spin like that and make it look easy, then maybe the training's working out.
Speaker A:Maybe, you know, whenever his first races.
Speaker A:Did he say what his first race is going to be?
Speaker B:I didn't hear it.
Speaker B:I won't be surprised if he shows up at Oceanside though.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:He won it last year.
Speaker A:Maybe on the, the higher volume programs.
Speaker A:It would be interesting to see now on this return to.
Speaker A:It feels like a return to the past for him, it feels like a return to.
Speaker A:I don't know, that 27.
Speaker A: He always refers to: Speaker A:Yeah, fair.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I love it with him.
Speaker A:You know, I think I remember when he was in Oceanside last year.
Speaker A:I was also there.
Speaker A:We weren't really racing together.
Speaker A:I'd say he was.
Speaker A:I was ahead of him out of the water, and then he passed me a lot quicker than I thought on the bike.
Speaker A:And so we were on the course at the same time.
Speaker A:But I remember thinking as I was running, he was looking good and I was like, man, if this guy wins, it's only going to be good for the sport.
Speaker A:Because the reality is with someone like Lionel, there's a few others.
Speaker A:But really, with Lionel, he's one of the few people who transcends triathlon in his.
Speaker A:With his YouTube and everything.
Speaker A:He's actually bringing more people into the sport, not just engaging athletes like us who already do it and love it.
Speaker A:He's really the guy who's bringing more people in through his journey.
Speaker A:Like, I wonder, do you think people are, like, following along with this training and now they're going to be switching up their style?
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker B:Oh, gosh, I don't know.
Speaker B:The thing about Lionel.
Speaker B:And listen, I love Lionel.
Speaker A:I've loved our bias again.
Speaker A:Our bias coming out.
Speaker B:Yeah, our bias coming out.
Speaker B:I've loved him.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:I've loved him for a long time.
Speaker B:And not just because of, like, how he's vulnerable and how he just puts himself out there, but because of his story and the fact that he came from a background of addiction.
Speaker B:Triathlon really saved him and has been his passion.
Speaker B:And it's just amazing that he's as committed and as good as he is, but also how good he is with his fans, which are legion.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I was at Indian Wells a few years ago and he won that race and he stood there and it was a line that was probably over an hour long just to.
Speaker B:To talk to him.
Speaker B:And he made time for every single person.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, that's class for sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's why people love him so.
Speaker A:Much, because he's doesn't make time to wait for me on the bike or anything.
Speaker A:For his fans.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But then when he puts out these videos, I continuously find myself going, like, why is he the person everybody looks at?
Speaker B:Because he is so commonly doing the same mistakes over and over again.
Speaker B:I can remember watching a video of him.
Speaker B: I think it was: Speaker B:And Kinlay, Sebastian Kinlay had made a joke to Lionel that he needed to stop doing an Ironman race every single day as part of his training.
Speaker B:And he's oh, I finally understood, I'm training too much, I need to train less.
Speaker B:And so he started training less and then he didn't have a good year and he, I need to train more.
Speaker B:He's constantly going back and forth.
Speaker A:He's keeping his fans on their toes is what he's doing.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:He's keeping things fresh for all of us.
Speaker A:But you know, at the end of the day, you saw the video, you saw what he was doing.
Speaker A:Do you think this is going to translate to success?
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker B:I hope so.
Speaker B:I hope so for, like you said, for the sport and for him.
Speaker B:I mean, I think if anybody can succeed, listen, he's succeeded with so many different kinds of training because I think he's just, he's got the incredible mental strength and he's just an incredibly gifted guy.
Speaker B:I remember when I was with you, when I was with you and him, you Chris Lee, for Min and him in Boulder.
Speaker A:Yep, that was a good time.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:Yeah, and then just the way he's able to push through and come out ahead.
Speaker B:You've seen him do that so many times in one on one battles, on the run, how he just always seems to overcome and, and come out ahead.
Speaker B:He's really quite an amazing guy.
Speaker B:If anybody's going to be able to succeed with this like very different kind of training, it's going to be him.
Speaker B:But is he going to.
Speaker B:We'll see.
Speaker B:We'll see.
Speaker B:It's not, it's counterintuitive.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:At the end of the day too, it's a, it's a model.
Speaker A:Athletes, they see what these pros are doing and they can model it.
Speaker A:Do you think his thesis of doing a lot of as much work as he can or whatever work makes sense at that race effort, do you think that is something that people could take on themselves?
Speaker B:Would you recognize the philosophy?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:The philosophy these days is completely the opposite.
Speaker B:For most age groupers it's all this zone two heavy stuff.
Speaker B:And to tell somebody, especially somebody who's not a pro, who's not, who's.
Speaker B:Doesn't have, listen.
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, I mean somebody who doesn't have the fitness base that he has, doesn't have the Track record that he has for as many years as he has is not going to be able to just jump in and do.
Speaker B:If he's doing 16 or 17 hours, that means that the average age grouper is probably only going to be able to do two thirds of that.
Speaker B:And that's probably going to be inadequate for most people.
Speaker B:And honestly like it by age.
Speaker B:Like I couldn't do it at my age.
Speaker B:There's no way I could put in that much because I need more time to recover.
Speaker B:So a young person maybe could do it.
Speaker B:But would they benefit?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:That's interesting.
Speaker A:We will see, I think, if it's sustainable.
Speaker A:I think that's what a lot of people are looking forward to see if something like this is sustainable over their.
Speaker A:A long season.
Speaker A:Yeah, I feel like I've seen anecdotally athletes when they're older, definitely dial back the volume, but go into this kind of philosophy and still retain their.
Speaker A:They have a massive like engine from those years of training.
Speaker A:And yeah, as you get older it takes longer to recover so you can't do as much volume.
Speaker A:But hey, if you can still hit the intensity and stay healthy, all that good stuff, then yeah, I don't know.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker B:What do you mean by older?
Speaker A:I would say, yeah, similar vintage to Lionel.
Speaker A:Almost in their 40s.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I was just gonna say cuz my older, which is like 50s, I can do volume.
Speaker B:I can't do the intensity the same route.
Speaker B:And it's not that I can't do intensity workouts, it's that the intensity workouts, it takes a.
Speaker A:They hit harder.
Speaker B:Yeah, they hit harder.
Speaker A:No good, good stuff.
Speaker B:Matt, I think we're gonna have to task you with getting Lionel to come on the show to tell us about it because I have failed miserably in getting him on my program.
Speaker A:So perhaps when he passes me on the bike in the next race, I'll.
Speaker A:I'll ask him quickly.
Speaker A:And there we go.
Speaker A:Maybe he'll be in a good spirit so he'll be onto it.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think Lionel over the years he's definitely been working on his swimming.
Speaker A:And our next kind of training thought or next segment is something that maybe he could incorporate to.
Speaker A:To help get closer to that front of the race and put himself in a better position.
Speaker A:And that is whether Band Only Swimming is something that can make you and make just athletes faster.
Speaker A:I think Band Only Swimming.
Speaker A:Do you have much experience with it, Jeff?
Speaker A:You like, you love it.
Speaker B:Okay, so first and foremost I was an adult Onset.
Speaker A:When did you first do ban only swimming?
Speaker B:So I'm an adult onset swimmer, which means that I have struggled with the swim for like my entire life.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I am now a above average swimmer.
Speaker B:I won't lose the race on the swim anymore.
Speaker B:I was given band ankle band swimming at some point and after nearly drowning on the first length, I.
Speaker B:I have never repeated it.
Speaker A:Never repeated it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I have never repeated it.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:It's definitely for a lot of folks, traumatizing.
Speaker A:And that's unfortunate because I do think it's actually something that a lot of athletes can benefit from.
Speaker A:Basically, band only swimming, if you're not listening, you're not familiar with it, you take.
Speaker A:Typically it's like an old bicycle inner tube that you got a flat on or something that's just stuck in the garage for some reason.
Speaker A:Basically, you just.
Speaker A:You cut it up with the scissors, tie and make it so it fits around your ankles fairly tight.
Speaker A:Not too restrictive, but enough where you can't really kick.
Speaker A:And essentially what I like about band only swimming, you wrap it around your ankles.
Speaker A:It helps ingrain a good body position, so it'll help you learn to try and engage your core more to keep your hips up.
Speaker A:Also helps if you're doing band only swimming, you really need to keep that stroke rate up because you just can't have any dead spots.
Speaker A:Any spots where you aren't gliding or aren't pulling in your stroke.
Speaker A:I think, like bandoli swimming, I think this is something that people should be doing, but there's definitely a progression to it.
Speaker A:Personally, I really think that if you've never done it before, definitely no more than like a 25 at a time.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I definitely think there's value to it.
Speaker B:I think that you have to be a proficient swimmer to gain from it because.
Speaker A:Proficient.
Speaker B:So proficient.
Speaker B:More proficient than I was when I tried it.
Speaker B:Because if you get in the water and you put the band on and you try swimming and immediately you just start thinking that you can't sw.
Speaker B:Then you're not proficient enough.
Speaker B:And so what I tell my swimmers are, it's a little bit of a cheat, but you can do band swimming with a pool boy to at least overcome some of that terrible sinking where you just.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You can't breathe and you end up.
Speaker B:It's such a struggle that it makes the workout useless.
Speaker B:But I think you have to be proficient enough that at least you can continually be moving.
Speaker B:Because if you have so many dead spots in your stroke and a lot of beginners and A lot of.
Speaker B:If age groupers have those dead spots in their stroke, then the band swimming just makes it so much worse.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:If you're at that point where you actually are fairly proficient as a swimmer, and this is a great drill to identify those spots to help work on them.
Speaker B:And also, as you said, to really improve the body position, try it with a pull buoy.
Speaker B:Then try removing the pull buoy.
Speaker B:I agree with you.
Speaker B:25s to start.
Speaker B:If you're.
Speaker B:If you're a really good swimmer, 50s are great, for sure.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:Like, especially if you're a new swimmer or you're, you know, just getting into it, even for 25 at a time, even you're just doing 12 and a half.
Speaker A:You're doing half the length of the pool.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:I think it's almost like a drill in a way.
Speaker A:And then as you build strength and build efficiency, I think you can start doing actual sets within a workout.
Speaker A: s, like something like: Speaker A:You can build that up to 50s.
Speaker A:I just really think it's a great kind of tool.
Speaker A:It's a great drill, but definitely a lot of frustration out there.
Speaker A:For the band only.
Speaker A:And really to.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, it helps to think about with your lungs if you're able to hold the air in and exhale.
Speaker A:Not everything right away because your lungs are helping keeping you afloat as well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it also helps you do breath management where you can play around with how much you're breathing out versus keeping in your chest.
Speaker A:I think that's something to play around with as well when you're doing band only.
Speaker B:And I think also if you're a newer or sort of medium strength swimmer, this is not a thing you do late in the swim workout.
Speaker B:You want to do it a little bit earlier when you're still fresh.
Speaker B:But if you're a really good swimmer, a good solid swimmer, doing it later in the swim will really, again, increase the efficiency of identifying those weak spots and of helping you find those things that you need to work on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When you're in a fatigue state.
Speaker A:That's a great point, Jeff.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When you're at a fatigue state, throwing on the band for a little bit at the end of a workout, it simulates that time late on in a triathlon when you've done the bulk of the work, but you still have a little bit to go, your hips are starting to sink, your head starting to rise up and just reengaging and becoming aware of that feeling, even just before race day, is super helpful.
Speaker B:Matt, I think we have covered quite a bit of ground today for our first episode of Tempo Talks.
Speaker B:It's been a very enjoyable conversation.
Speaker B:I hope that the listeners have enjoyed it as and if you did, please do share this with someone, let them know what we're doing here.
Speaker B:We would love to have more of you to talk to.
Speaker B:If you have a question you'd like us to consider addressing on Tempo Talks, how should they get in touch with you?
Speaker B:Matt?
Speaker A:I think hello, temponews.com is a great email address.
Speaker A:Also hit me up on Instagram.
Speaker A:Mdsharp1 is my Instagram handle.
Speaker A:That's a great spot for sure.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:And you can email me@tridocloud.com and I'm tridocoaching on Instagram.
Speaker B:We'll have all of these things in the show notes.
Speaker B:We'll hope that you will check them out.
Speaker B:And again, we will see you next week.
Speaker B:We hope you enjoyed this first version of Tempo Talks.
Speaker B:Thanks for being here.
Speaker A:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening and thanks, Jeff, for hopping on here.
Speaker A:This is a lot of fun.
Speaker B:Tempo Talks is a production of the Triathlon Performance Hub and was produced and edited by Jeff Senkoff.
Speaker B:The music heard at the beginning and end of the show is Rock by Henry Graggart and is used under a Creative Commons license from Pixabay.
Speaker B:Tempo Talks will be back again next week with a new episode.
Speaker B:Until then, please leave a rating and a review and subscribe to the show wherever you get your audio content.
